Monday, April 28, 2014

Lucia What's going on with Ukraine and who is being more truthful

There's been a bit of debate in the blogosphere about whether or not what Russia is up to in Ukraine is justified or not. The debates I've been involved in have been mostly at KiwiBlog in the General Debates there. It's been too hard to post here for me, as I think the media have been doing a good job of keeping track of what is going on, and this is an emotional subject for me.

Emotional because I have read a lot of what happened to Poland with regards to Russian propaganda ahead of the Teheran and Yalta agreements that basically gave large chunks of Poland to the Soviet Union without much protest or effort on behalf of Poland's supposed allies who just thought it was better to placate Russia, than do what was right. Coupled with the lies back then about who was really responsible for the Katyn Massacres (the allies and the Soviets pinned it on the Nazis, even though the Poles were adamant that it was the Russians, but no one was listening to them at that point).

Oh, but Russia is not the Soviet Union, you might say. True, the Empire has fallen, but there has been no de-Communisation in Russia that has taken a good, hard look at the past and everyone's role in it. A de-Communisation would put ex-KGB chiefs into retirement, not re-elect them as the country's President.

Anyway, here's a good article on the Daily Beast (a much better site now that Andrew Sullivan has left), that goes into who is doing the most in Ukraine to escalate the situation into a full out war: Reality Check in Ukraine

DONETSK, Ukraine -- In the war of words between Washington and Moscow—a rhetorical clash that is descending to personal insults – both sides are determined to prove they are in the right in an information war waged at a Twitter-driven speed that would have made the heads of their Cold War predecessors spin.

But who is telling the truth? Below is The Daily Beast’s checklist on the Geneva agreement that is the closest thing we have as a touchstone for gauging reality.

Diplomats drawn from Russia, Ukraine, the United States and the European Union hammered out the accord on April 17. They agreed to “initial concrete steps to de-escalate tensions” in Ukraine with all sides saying they would “refrain from any violence, intimidation or provocative actions.” The joint communique called for “all illegal armed groups to be disarmed; all illegally seized buildings to be returned to their legitimate owners; all illegally occupied streets, squares and other public places in Ukrainian cities and towns to be vacated.”

Under the accord amnesty would be given to surrendering protesters except for those found guilty of capital crimes. And the OSCE was given a lead role in implementing the accord.

So, who has kept to the letter and spirit of the accord more and who has been more egregious in shunning it?

Read the link to find out. If that's too much for you, then I can summarise. Russia has been escalating, while as the response from Ukraine and all the other countries has been restrained.

6 comment(s):

Andrei said...

Russia has been escalating, while as the response from Ukraine and all the other countries has been restrained.

Yes Russia has crossed the Atlantic to put its warships in the Baltic and Black Seas and put troops into Poland and Latvia - I must have missed that bit.

Do you really believe that Putin is the next Hitler on his way to conquer Europe?

That's nuts Russia for its size has a very small military, it miltary expenditure per capita is almost identical to New Zealand's military expenditure per capita.



Guess which Nation spends the most on military, 42% of the entire worlds total to be precise.


Hint it aint Russia which doesn't even come close and whose military is designed for defence not offense.


But if you shout a lie over and over people come to believe it, no matter how ridiculous I guess so Putin's the aggressor for defending his country while those who are assailing it from over the ocean are defenders of "democracy and Freedom"..



And it was "democracy and freedom" they were promoting when the toppled an elected Government to be replaced by one of their choosing
because Ukrainians couldn't be trusted to elect one that meets the State Departments approval.

Andrei said...

Let me tell you what I think.

The USA has the largest military machine the world has ever seen and they can't afford it. They are borrowing a billion dollars a day just to keep it going and you can't do that forever.

I think they want to wipe out Russia while they still can but they want to make it look like Russia is to blame.

I think America is in the deep do dos, about to collapse and war with Russia is a Hail Mary attempt to survive as a super power - the only super power.

Dangerous times

Lucia Maria said...

Do you really believe that Putin is the next Hitler on his way to conquer Europe?

No telling at this point. It's not looking good, though, what with this new form of warfare he's playing with.

Andrei said...

Utter nonsense Milt - this is not about Russia building an Empire its about the USA building its technocratic world empire.

All Putin wants is stable neighbours on the border of Russia and to be able to sell Russian gas to Europe with out impediments.

What the USA wants is to disrupt this because it is outside their control and that is what this is what this is all about.

If you think that rich pricks like John Kerry give a toss about miners in Ukraine I've got a bridge for Brooklyn for sale.

The majority of Ukraine was of course part of Russia for hundreds of years, just three provinces in the far West of the country were not and that is what has been ruthlessly exploited by Washington to make sure Ukraine as a Nation could never be stable.

They are lying to you Milt through their teeth

William Stout said...

With regards to the Yalta conference, Churchill was furious that FDR allowed Stalin to keep possession of the Eastern European territories. Stalin promised that he would allow elections as to whether or not each nation would retain the U.S.S.R. as it's "protector." FDR sided with Stalin and the result was the iron curtain. It is not surprising to see Putin following that prescription. Putin is old style KGB and was horrified by the implosion of the U.S.S.R. while he was stationed in East Germany. He felt that the vacuum created by that event was intolerable and should never happen again.

He has held the U.S. responsible for "shaming" (his word, not mine) Russia at the end of the Cold War. Putin is a pragmatist, not a madman. He will not go out of his way to kill an opponent, but he will not shy away from it either if that is the only way that he can get what he wants. He has fabricated evidence used to lock up his political opponents, he has assassinated problem individuals, and he has used propaganda in the old style Soviet sense of the word.

In short, he is the world's first intelligence dictator and Russia is the
world's first intelligence state. In essence, the KGB now runs the state. Western diplomacy must now adapt to that fact if they seek to deal with Russia effectively. Otherwise, Putin will play them like a violin and Ukraine is the first concerto.

Andrei said...

It never occurs to you, does it William, that you yourself might be faithfully swallowing and regurgitating propaganda?


Since Putin became President there has been a huge rise in the living standards of most Russians, this is why he is popular.


Russia does not put its money into surveilling its citizens or into a grossly oversized military but into schools, roads and hospitals, all of which need it.


In short Russia is ascending as the West is imploding and that at its heart is what this crisis is about.


And that is why people like John Kerry are so angry and flustered.


Oh and btw and fwiw George H W Bush was director of the CIA before becoming vice-president and president of the USA

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